Q: Is there one person who’s had a big impact on you as a leader?

A: Far more than one. I’ll start with my wife of 27 years, Angie. Without her love and support at home, there’s no way I would have gotten to where I am. I wasn’t even of legal drinking age when we met and worked as clerks in a video store while going to college. From those days to now empty nesting, having an equal—and often better—partner throughout that journey is invaluable.

Next is my friend, Foothill Credit Union CEO Mike Terzian. His leadership strength has always been his ability to get people who don’t even like each other to work together. I call him the “Great Facilitator.”

Early in our credit union careers, he earned a job I wanted at that credit union. I applied for it, but they came to him. Before they announced who’d get the role, he met with me and said, “Look, you deserve this job more than I do and I can’t do this without you. I treat this as more of a partnership than me being your boss.”

Imagine the impression that made. I followed him to what would become my dream job at the time. He encouraged and fully supported my commitment to America’s Credit Unions, and even was instrumental in helping me come to First City.

I can’t leave out my partner in crime, Mia Perez—my friend and co-host of The Leadership Experiment Podcast. She’s the chief administrative officer at a large credit union, and we met through the Councils Executive Committee. Working on this committee and on The Leadership Experiment together really pushed me and opened up my thinking.

And, most importantly, this list would not be complete without quoting Philippians 4:13: “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”

Q: How would you describe your approach to leadership?

A: In a nutshell, leadership is a giant experiment that few get right—but that’s ok. Like any good science experiment, it’s as much about discovering what doesn’t work than what does, and then making it repeatable and sustainable.

The only difference is we don’t have the luxury of experimenting in a lab. We’re out there with real people and real emotions, often with real consequences on the line, so we have to get it right. This is where empathy comes into play.

Leadership also is about thinking with the end in mind: What’s the goal or outcome I need to achieve, and what do I need to do to make it happen? That’s especially true if I need to change my perspective, horizon, or approach to get it done.

We’re conditioned to believe in top-down bureaucratic or military management, but's that’s not how people respond today. I used to think that the person at the top knew all the answers and had all the insights. I now know that’s optimistic thinking at best.

Q: What’s one leadership mistake you’ve made during your career, and what did you learn from it?

A: Just one? Being a leader is admitting when you’ve made a mistake.

I recently made a public apology to two very talented individuals who stepped up in a time of need, and I’d failed to provide the proper background and notice on some procedural things. It was important to me that they and the rest of the team know that I take that miss on my part very seriously and acknowledged it publicly.

That’s not the first—nor will it be the last—time that I will take ownership and accept responsibility. That was the lesson: The mistake is unimportant, but it’s important to admit you failed and make sure the right people know that you know. Then, make it right.

The best leaders in any industry raise their hands and get in front of issues, take ownership, and pledge to make the meaningful change necessary to earn back trust, whether it’s from employees, customers, or the general public.

Conversely, those who shirk accountability or blame others quickly find there’s no one following them. It’s difficult to be a leader without any followers.

Q: What’s the best leadership advice you’ve ever received?

A: My favorite leadership advice comes from Aaron Burr in the musical Hamilton: “Talk less, smile more.”

Early in my career, I always had to try and prove to everyone that I was—or at least I thought I was—the smartest person in the room, and I deserved to be heard. Thanks to my experience at The Walt Disney Company and Councils, where I got to work with executives from around the world, I realized it was less about me talking and it was more about listening.v

Taking a top-down approach to management is a mistake because you’re providing a solution before knowing what the problem is. The best way to learn about a problem is to immerse yourself in the environment, do it yourself, and ask questions. Then you learn how to work toward the end goal and not focus on the process flow.

The best leaders don’t preach from the pulpit or talk at their audience, they actively listen and ask pointed questions. I want to be the dumbest person in the room. That means I’m learning and listening.

Q: What advice would you offer aspiring marketing/business development leaders?

A: Have no regrets and work hard from day one. Don’t waste your time. Always be focused and developing. Put in the work early and often.

Q: Are there any other thoughts you’d like to share?

A: I heard this in a presentation by writer and producer Kenya Barris: “We're not counted until we make ourselves counted.”

Don’t sit there meekly waiting your turn, hoping someone will call on you. Step up and make your voice heard. There’s no better way to do that in our movement than by volunteering for the Councils. Join a committee. All the real work happens by volunteers in our committees.

Get involved and put your voice and talents to work for the industry. Cheers!